The
Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy will hold talks in London today with prime
minister David Cameron.
While Cameron wants to settle for a wide agenda, Rajoy has a Rock in his mind, which is typical of visits to London by Spanish politicians.
Rajoy's aim is to step up the momentum on Gibraltar talks at bilateral level, with sovereignty in the air.
But Cameron is certain to reiterate that sovereignty talks will only take place if the Gibraltarians are content and that, in any event, the UK government will stand by the long-standing guarantee that there will not be a transfer of sovereignty against the wishes of the people of Gibraltar.
SELF-DETERMINATION
It is to be hoped that Cameron will re-state what he said in the Council of Europe recently that self-determination applied to both Gibraltar and the Falklands.
This would be the last thing Rajoy will want to hear, as it is PP policy that Gibraltarians should not have any say on sovereignty or have self-determination recognised.
But many in Gibraltar think it is only by being being seen to be firm that the Spanish leadership will begin to understand that the UK government really is firm on what it says, and that there is no prospect of any shift from current British policy.
It is not clear how long the exchanges on Gibraltar will last. If the Spaniards have their way, the longer the better; but Cameron is taking a wider look on European affairs and will want to point out, in his best diplomatic language, that it is in Spain's interest to concentrate on the serious problems facing Spain as a member of the Eurozone.
It was chief minister Fabian Picardo who recently urged Madrid to concentrate in solving their 5-million unemployment problem and to forget about their historic claim to the Rock - which is obviously an issue without solution!
Not only that but as Cameron recently suggested the Gibraltar claim is as anachronistic as the Treaty of Utrecht, because self-determination can only mean that.
In the past the Foreign Office line has been that Spain should woo the Gibraltarians, but Gibraltarians were to become increasingly annoyed at the repetitive references to wooing, for the simple reason that Gibraltarians see a UK-linked Gibraltar as their permanent homeland.
It was apparently agreed prior to today's meeting that each side would raise 'any other matters' if time permitted, which for Rajoy means making a Rock reference.
Since Margallo took over at the Spanish foreign ministry there have been noisy attempts to shift the UK position on Gibraltar, but so far without any success for the Spaniards.
FRICTION
Even the trilateral forum is a source of friction, as the Foreign Office sees it as paving the way forward, while Madrid sees it as ceding rights which they claim to be outside Utrecht.
The fact that the UK in 2001 was prepared to negotiate sovereignty is something the Spaniards have in mind, given that such a development took place when a PP government was in power in Madrid.
While Cameron wants to settle for a wide agenda, Rajoy has a Rock in his mind, which is typical of visits to London by Spanish politicians.
Rajoy's aim is to step up the momentum on Gibraltar talks at bilateral level, with sovereignty in the air.
But Cameron is certain to reiterate that sovereignty talks will only take place if the Gibraltarians are content and that, in any event, the UK government will stand by the long-standing guarantee that there will not be a transfer of sovereignty against the wishes of the people of Gibraltar.
SELF-DETERMINATION
It is to be hoped that Cameron will re-state what he said in the Council of Europe recently that self-determination applied to both Gibraltar and the Falklands.
This would be the last thing Rajoy will want to hear, as it is PP policy that Gibraltarians should not have any say on sovereignty or have self-determination recognised.
But many in Gibraltar think it is only by being being seen to be firm that the Spanish leadership will begin to understand that the UK government really is firm on what it says, and that there is no prospect of any shift from current British policy.
It is not clear how long the exchanges on Gibraltar will last. If the Spaniards have their way, the longer the better; but Cameron is taking a wider look on European affairs and will want to point out, in his best diplomatic language, that it is in Spain's interest to concentrate on the serious problems facing Spain as a member of the Eurozone.
It was chief minister Fabian Picardo who recently urged Madrid to concentrate in solving their 5-million unemployment problem and to forget about their historic claim to the Rock - which is obviously an issue without solution!
Not only that but as Cameron recently suggested the Gibraltar claim is as anachronistic as the Treaty of Utrecht, because self-determination can only mean that.
In the past the Foreign Office line has been that Spain should woo the Gibraltarians, but Gibraltarians were to become increasingly annoyed at the repetitive references to wooing, for the simple reason that Gibraltarians see a UK-linked Gibraltar as their permanent homeland.
It was apparently agreed prior to today's meeting that each side would raise 'any other matters' if time permitted, which for Rajoy means making a Rock reference.
Since Margallo took over at the Spanish foreign ministry there have been noisy attempts to shift the UK position on Gibraltar, but so far without any success for the Spaniards.
FRICTION
Even the trilateral forum is a source of friction, as the Foreign Office sees it as paving the way forward, while Madrid sees it as ceding rights which they claim to be outside Utrecht.
The fact that the UK in 2001 was prepared to negotiate sovereignty is something the Spaniards have in mind, given that such a development took place when a PP government was in power in Madrid.
JOE GARCIA - Panorama Gibraltar
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UPDATE
As foreshadowed in Panorama yesterday, the meeting in London between David
Cameron and Mariano Rajoy was a damp squib insofar as the Gibraltar issue was
concerned.
Rajoy went to London with the Rock in his mind, but Cameron did not shift from the UK's clear standpoint on Gibraltar.
For cameron, there cannot be 'any discussions' unless Gibraltar so desires. In fact, Cameron made the UK position clearer than ever, saying that there would be no discusasions with Spain that the Gibraltarians did not want Britain to engage in. And he added that it was important for that to be understood.
And both Cameron and Rajoy confirmed that the positions of the two countries on Gibraltar differed.
Cameron made it crystal clear that when it comes to Gibraltar it is the Gibraltarians who decide.
At No.10 Downing Street, a reporter asked: I would like to know if on your bilateral agenda you talked about the conflict, Gibraltar, and specifically whether you’ve talked about it and whether you’re going to open up a negotiation and if it’s going to be exclusively if so between London and Madrid which is one of the requests of the Spanish Government.
Rajoy was rather subdued and uncharacteristically for a Spanish primer minister said very little: "Yes we have talked about Gibraltar and our Foreign Ministers will continue talking in the future. Our positions differ, but we will continue talking."
In fact they had talked about Gibraltar, there was no progress and positions differed, so all he could say was that they would carry on talking.
Cameron said more and was more explicit: "On the issue of Gibraltar, as the Spanish Prime Minister said we do have different positions from the UK perspective. "There’s no change in the Government’s position. It’s for the people of Gibraltar themselves to determine their future and we wouldn’t engage in any discussion about Gibraltar that the Gibraltarians didn’t want us to engage in and I think that’s important to understand. "But I don’t believe that should get in the way of a strong bilateral relationship between Britain and Spain."
Cameron was repeating what he said in the Council of Europe recently: That it's for the people of Gibraltar themselves to determine their future.
NO TO BILATERAL TALKS
Meanwhile, on the eve of the London visit, the Spanish foreign minister Margallo received a missile from foreign secretary Hague in reply to a letter that had been sent by the Spaniard asking that the trilateral talks become bilateral, with the UK taking Gibraltar to the talks and Spain taking the Campo.
Hague replied that the Spaniards could include their local Campo representatives but in their own delegation. But the tripartite talks would have to remain tripartite between Britain, Spain and Gibraltar.
Joe Garcia 2012-02-22Rajoy went to London with the Rock in his mind, but Cameron did not shift from the UK's clear standpoint on Gibraltar.
For cameron, there cannot be 'any discussions' unless Gibraltar so desires. In fact, Cameron made the UK position clearer than ever, saying that there would be no discusasions with Spain that the Gibraltarians did not want Britain to engage in. And he added that it was important for that to be understood.
And both Cameron and Rajoy confirmed that the positions of the two countries on Gibraltar differed.
Cameron made it crystal clear that when it comes to Gibraltar it is the Gibraltarians who decide.
At No.10 Downing Street, a reporter asked: I would like to know if on your bilateral agenda you talked about the conflict, Gibraltar, and specifically whether you’ve talked about it and whether you’re going to open up a negotiation and if it’s going to be exclusively if so between London and Madrid which is one of the requests of the Spanish Government.
Rajoy was rather subdued and uncharacteristically for a Spanish primer minister said very little: "Yes we have talked about Gibraltar and our Foreign Ministers will continue talking in the future. Our positions differ, but we will continue talking."
In fact they had talked about Gibraltar, there was no progress and positions differed, so all he could say was that they would carry on talking.
Cameron said more and was more explicit: "On the issue of Gibraltar, as the Spanish Prime Minister said we do have different positions from the UK perspective. "There’s no change in the Government’s position. It’s for the people of Gibraltar themselves to determine their future and we wouldn’t engage in any discussion about Gibraltar that the Gibraltarians didn’t want us to engage in and I think that’s important to understand. "But I don’t believe that should get in the way of a strong bilateral relationship between Britain and Spain."
Cameron was repeating what he said in the Council of Europe recently: That it's for the people of Gibraltar themselves to determine their future.
NO TO BILATERAL TALKS
Meanwhile, on the eve of the London visit, the Spanish foreign minister Margallo received a missile from foreign secretary Hague in reply to a letter that had been sent by the Spaniard asking that the trilateral talks become bilateral, with the UK taking Gibraltar to the talks and Spain taking the Campo.
Hague replied that the Spaniards could include their local Campo representatives but in their own delegation. But the tripartite talks would have to remain tripartite between Britain, Spain and Gibraltar.
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The Government has expressed its satisfaction at 'the defence of Gibraltar and its people' by Prime Minister David Cameron in London on Tuesday, after meeting with the Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy.
"The Government and people of Gibraltar were delighted to see the robust approach taken by the Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary in the face of the intransigent Spanish insistence on the anachronistic claim over the sovereignty of the Rock and the clamour for the revival of the “dead and buried” Brussels Process," said Gibraltar's chief minister Fabian Picardo.
Britain and Spain formally agreed to discuss Gibraltar's sovereignty, which Spain claims after having ceded it to Britain in 1713, under an agreement signed in Brussels in 1984.
But the Gibraltar government rejects any bilateral talks between Britain and Spain over Gibraltar, and favour trilateral talks at which the Gibraltar government takes part as a third party.
Picardo said: “David Cameron does Gibraltar proud in the way he portrays diplomatically and clearly Gibraltar’s position to the Spanish Government.”
Both Cameron and Rajoy admitted at the end of the London meeting that their standpoints on Gibraltar differed.
For Cameron, "there’s no change in the (British) Government’s position. It’s for the people of Gibraltar themselves to determine their future and we wouldn’t engage in any discussion about Gibraltar that the Gibraltarians didn’t want us to engage in and I think that’s important to understand. "
Said Rajoy: "Our positions differ, but we will continue talking."
2012-02-23 Panorama
